Curse

Arkantos · Jan 05, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

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This has to win an award as the most retarded thought ever.. Sorry Akantos, but I would expect better from a Guru mod.

Wait, let me get this straight. My idea is retarded because if it was implemented, hard mode would be harder for people? My God, that is retarded! Thank you so much.

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Thank god you aren't a balancer.

And why is that? Because if I was a balancer, the game would actually be balanced? Fair enough, you're entitled to your own opinion.

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these gimmick builds allow inexperienced players to get the hang of and actually play in the elite areas without getting frustrated and quitting altogether.

You don't find it a little funny that you're saying inexperienced players should be able to easily roll through hard mode elite missions?

Really?

pumpkin pie · Jan 05, 2009, 09:55 AM // 09:55

My view, if what a player does, does not directly affect the fun of other players in Guild Wars its not unbalanced. Hence there's no need for any nerf, we probably need those effort put into changing and preventing other more pressing matter like, botting.

cyber88 · Jan 05, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

My view, if what a player does, does not directly affect the fun of other players in Guild Wars its not unbalanced. Hence there's no need for any nerf, we probably need those effort put into changing and preventing other more pressing matter like, botting.

This guy hit the problem of all problems. He gets my vote.

[Morkai] · Jan 05, 2009, 10:20 AM // 10:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

My view, if what a player does, does not directly affect the fun of other players in Guild Wars its not unbalanced. Hence there's no need for any nerf, we probably need those effort put into changing and preventing other more pressing matter like, botting.

That may be your view, but it's not the definition of balance.

I'm not going to quote the entirety of the thread, however there is much truth in what Arkantos has put forward. The game is in a dying state and yeah, it's pretty unbalanced.

I agree with most of the balances suggested, (being an avid user of [Save Yourselves!] on all physical characters) I still agree it needs to be fixed. And probably linked to a primary attribute to stop abuse, as should things like CoP.

Hard Mode shouldn't be a breeze, sure there are a few GW:EN areas where people struggle to H/H in HM, however any Human team with enough sense to mash skills on recharge can do them without difficulty. But overall Hard Mode Should be just that, Hard.

Another argument was "Oh but Arkantos, even you abuse these skills". Sure, why not? They're there aren't they? Just because we use them doesn't mean we don't accept they're extremely unbalanced. Not knowing Arkantos personally, however i'm pretty sure if these PvE skills were balanced, both him and his Guild would be more than capable of playing through areas, due to something called Player Skill. Which takes experience to gain and master.

Ask yourself this: Should completely unexperienced players be able to destroy Elite Areas in Hard Mode? The answer is no. You're free to disagree, but you'll be wrong.

Lhim · Jan 05, 2009, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

My view, if what a player does, does not directly affect the fun of other players in Guild Wars its not unbalanced. Hence there's no need for any nerf, we probably need those effort put into changing and preventing other more pressing matter like, botting.

Actually, it does affect other players. All you see is glf cryer, sf tank, etc, etc. I honestly don't understand what ppl have against toning down some ridiculously overpowered skills. It will make hard mode a bit harder which is more challenging and fun, but still very doable. It would just require more thought and teamconsult. Combined with the attempt to buff underused elites (which allows a bit more builddiversity), it would allow more flexibility so cryers and sf tanks and what not are not necessary anymore. However, as long as they exist....

kostolomac · Jan 05, 2009, 12:53 PM // 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by deank81

Actually, it does affect other players. All you see is glf cryer, sf tank, etc, etc. I honestly don't understand what ppl have against toning down some ridiculously overpowered skills. It will make hard mode a bit harder which is more challenging and fun, but still very doable. It would just require more thought and teamconsult. Combined with the attempt to buff underused elites (which allows a bit more builddiversity), it would allow more flexibility so cryers and sf tanks and what not are not necessary anymore. However, as long as they exist....

Another problem is the design of most elite areas. They just call for gimmicks , especially DoA. I wish there were more SF-like areas.

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TNTF only works for Paragons, am I right? It also scales with Leadership so how does this make SY! overpowered for a warrior? Exactly, you're clueless.

Everyone agreeing with the need to nerf overpowered PvE skills is wrong, and if you'd like, I'd make you feel stupid in game.

Are you naturally that stupid , or you take special training for it?

the_jos · Jan 05, 2009, 01:01 PM // 13:01

I think there are two distinct problems here.
First of all the speed clears of elite areas.
Second the lack of challenge in HM.

The first is basically a farming issue and should be handled like that.
Does it bring a lot of new gold in the economy? I doubt it (remember, the base value of items including ecto is rarely over 500gp, much less on average). So it doesn't hurt the economy as bad, only for players speculating that prices will remain high.

The second is a decision for each individual team/player.
Use cons/PvE skills for a ride in the park, leave them for more challenge.

I hardly ever see skills like SF, SY and CoP used in teams I play with.
Not because we can't play them, we just don't need them. Cons? Once in a while, to avoid butchering in areas because of slight mistakes humans or heroes make. I can't help it that A-net's definition of Hard is buffing foes to insane levels instead of just randomizing the mobs and make them use more hex/conditions/protection.

Yesterday we did a vanq in Sacnoth and the only trouble we had was with the fire ele boss.
I won't tune a team just for one group and also I don't want to depend on some form of tanking.

I won't mind a nerf on SF, SY, CoP, SR or whatever, but it won't solve anything. Other broken builds will turn up.
What needs to be changed is some game mechanics, so balanced teams have advantage over gimmic.
For example, some physicals with Order of ... (the remove enchantment one) would kill most farming builds while still enabling balanced to play.

The only change I would be in favor of is changing consumables.
Make them one/two use at the time (including single-player ones).
Or make them counter each other (for example, cons 1 gives speed boost, cons 2 negates it). That way a team could use cons more tactical instead of just putting them on and rampaging the area.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 01:06 PM // 13:06

PvE skills are imbalanced. All of them. They don't require attribute points. Most of them aren't profession specific. Anet should have split PvE and PvP from the beginning. Instead they created this.

Shadow form is a stupid skill. But at the present state can't kill shit by itself. Like any tank out there.

CoP is easily overpowered. Huge AoE armor ignoring damage, with a short recharge and an interrupt to boost.

Cryway, although more powerful than old tank and spank, is just a version of it (except it actually uses a good source of damage

).

SY! and Discordway have been targeted for nerf because they allow people without farming/elite guilds to finish elite areas. And that's it.

SY! only useful purpose is defending AI npcs from stupid overpowered elementalists that spam spells that deal 500+ damage a hit, in aoe if need be.

All other considerable damage is armor ignoring, to which SY! does 0!.

You have threads like this, asking for nerf of skills, but will the same persons ask for decent builds for henchmen?
Some people think that 1 player that is using 4 henchies with 480 hp and crap skills like healing breeze aren't allowed to complete HM.

Most of this thread isn't about nerfing skills that are destroying gws. Is about nerfing skills that allow people to play in small groups, not requiring elite guilds to do stuff.

Requiring elite guilds to do stuff is called GvG. Go there for a challenge you will never find in PvE.

Keira Nightgale · Jan 05, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

Wait, let me get this straight. My idea is retarded because if it was implemented, hard mode would be harder for people? My God, that is retarded! Thank you so much.

And why is that? Because if I was a balancer, the game would actually be balanced? Fair enough, you're entitled to your own opinion.

You don't find it a little funny that you're saying inexperienced players should be able to easily roll through hard mode elite missions?

Really?

No, your idea is retarded because for it to be viable would need A-net to basically remake pve by lowering mobs level cap to a max of 20, lower their hp/attribute points/armor/ spawning number, remove mobs only skills, hp passives buffs/dmg and defense passives boosts some monsters have. Also it would be a necessity in such scenario the redoing of most builds/AI in order to have enemies switch target more often and operate with decent builds. Since this game has another year and a half of living before gw2 is out; A-net doesn't want to use resources to fix these issues, pve skills are essentially the best way to fix pve scenarios where mobs have loads of hp/damage without having to do a massive overhaul.
On a second note "balance" in pve doesn't exist, it's a silly concept used everytime someone needs to prove his arguments valid, and it's pretty much a way to hide elitism. Balance doesn't exist in pve and doesn't need to, no mob will ever complain about players using overpowered skills since they are npcs. It's different in pvp where you're playing against humans and the purpose of the game is to defeat the opposite team.
About the "economy" thing, this is a source of laughs, are we seriously talking about economy in a game? If we wanted to take the serious approach to this, then we can simply dismiss the matter by saying pve skills made actually economy better by allowing more people to get otherwise impossible to obtain items /accomplish impossible feats, any opinion against this is just silly elitism and QQ from people who just had their e-penis cut, besides if really people wanted to mantain their position they could increase the prices of their items since the currency (ectos and zkeys) is now in surplus.
On top of that arguing about Fast clears/Pve skills impact on economy it's really stupid when you got hundreds of thousands zkeys injected every month from predictions, rare minipets that can be obtained by adding codes found on magazines or by farming a simple dungeon (same goes for titles).
This whole thread has no point to exist, if you don't want to use pve skills you don't have to, your whole game experience won't be affected by them unless you can't help but whine at the other guys getting money and items faster than you did, but this is a subjective problem in no way related to an objective game mechanic flaw.
The whole "fix pve thing" is personal, you and a limited number of players feel like it needs to be fixed since from your personal point of view this is an issue, but speaking absolutely there is no problem here, people get items/titles faster than before, we will live with it.

Productivity · Jan 05, 2009, 01:30 PM // 13:30

There is a strange attitude amongst players here that because something is in the game and they paid for the game, they have the right to be able to easily beat it.

Anet has for some bizare reason agreed with that, hence we have consumables etc. in the game. Such a viewpoint only damages the game, as it reduces player skill, creates nothing to aspire to and generally retards the quality of the game.

Consequently GW PVE has degenerated into nothing more than a buttonmashing fest. It would be far more interesting if the average player regularly got chewed up and spit out by hard-mode, instead of breezing through it. Then you have something to aim for and develop to, unlike the current game where because the majority of the gameplay has become so easy that it's just a matter of throwing time at the game and getting the reward, the only PVE challenge left is not getting RSI because you've double clicked 10,000 times for a consumption title.

Nerf the overpowered crap, bring GW back to being a game where being skillful actually matters. Not going to happen of course, because selling out to the lowest common denominator sells units.

Grj · Jan 05, 2009, 01:58 PM // 13:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

There is a strange attitude amongst players here that because something is in the game and they paid for the game, they have the right to be able to easily beat it.

Like the attitude people constantly complain about the skills breaking this game and thinking fixing these skills will magically make all the problems go away?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

Anet has for some bizare reason agreed with that, hence we have consumables etc. in the game. Such a viewpoint only damages the game, as it reduces player skill, creates nothing to aspire to and generally retards the quality of the game.

I agree with this cons should of never been in the game but the threads around the time where drowned out by the nerf ursan threads.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

Consequently GW PVE has degenerated into nothing more than a buttonmashing fest. It would be far more interesting if the average player regularly got chewed up and spit out by hard-mode, instead of breezing through it. Then you have something to aim for and develop to, unlike the current game where because the majority of the gameplay has become so easy that it's just a matter of throwing time at the game and getting the reward, the only PVE challenge left is not getting RSI because you've double clicked 10,000 times for a consumption title.

Nerf the overpowered crap, bring GW back to being a game where being skillful actually matters. Not going to happen of course, because selling out to the lowest common denominator sells units.

People still do and will continue to fail in hard mode, just you won't hear about it much on here becuase people don't take kindly to people finding something hard.

What happens when you nerf all the overpowered skills?

You're left with the player mindset that all pug's suck, everybody in this game is a noob, people fail etc etc....

Avarre · Jan 05, 2009, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Productivity

There is a strange attitude amongst players here that because something is in the game and they paid for the game, they have the right to be able to easily beat it.

Anet has for some bizare reason agreed with that, hence we have consumables etc. in the game. Such a viewpoint only damages the game, as it reduces player skill, creates nothing to aspire to and generally retards the quality of the game.

Consequently GW PVE has degenerated into nothing more than a buttonmashing fest. It would be far more interesting if the average player regularly got chewed up and spit out by hard-mode, instead of breezing through it. Then you have something to aim for and develop to, unlike the current game where because the majority of the gameplay has become so easy that it's just a matter of throwing time at the game and getting the reward, the only PVE challenge left is not getting RSI because you've double clicked 10,000 times for a consumption title.

Nerf the overpowered crap, bring GW back to being a game where being skillful actually matters. Not going to happen of course, because selling out to the lowest common denominator sells units.

Basically this.

It continues to blow my mind that people can legitimately defend there being changes to continually make the game easier. Do you look at yourselves in the mirror, and feel dead inside that you think this is a good idea?

Small wonder that a large part of the GW community gets no respect from accomplished players.

Grj · Jan 05, 2009, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Basically this.

It continues to blow my mind that people can legitimately defend there being changes to continually make the game easier. Do you look at yourselves in the mirror, and feel dead inside that you think this is a good idea?

Small wonder that a large part of the GW community gets no respect from accomplished players.

I really do hope the last paragraph isn't shared by the majority here and in game.

People are suggesting changes that will effect accomplished and non-accomplished players alike, do you expect people to endorse these changes made by people who do not respect a part of the community.

Tenebrae · Jan 05, 2009, 03:57 PM // 15:57

I read the first post and starts bad .... i dont really like ppl that uses things like "as we all know" , "lot of people thinks" , "as we all agree" and that kinda shit to help state that they are right but ok , i continued reading aaaaaand i stopped at the PvE skills " " " " balance " " " " .
- SY : Balanced ? yeah, pretty balanced u NERF it so tha ONLY warrior can use it . Rest of allegiance skills can be used by any prof but SY cant right ? nah , FAIL .
- CoP : Same FAIL than before.
- SF : Congratulations , u made an Elite skill useless and worthless like a non elite skill that no one uses, another FAIL .

I think u missed the point that PvE Skills need to be balanced between them. They are overpowered bcoz they are MEANT to . If they werent doing powerful things why would we use them ? . U wanna balance them ? cap the limit of PVE skills on a bar to 1 or 2 . THAT is the only fair balance possible. Link part of the power/effect of the skill to the main prof attrb is a good idea ..... but not the ENTIRE effect dude , only a part ( like TNTF ).

/notsigned ofc

Abedeus · Jan 05, 2009, 04:16 PM // 16:16

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- SY : Balanced ? yeah, pretty balanced u NERF it so tha ONLY warrior can use it . Rest of allegiance skills can be used by any prof but SY cant right ? nah , FAIL .

SY - Anyone can use. Ranger, Monk, Warrior, Paragon, Dervish, Assassin. You just need For Great Justice/Dark Fury/Infurating Heat and you're good to go.

Cry of Pain - Yeah, everyone can, although only 4 pips of energy regen should. Even monks...

Triple Shot - Only Rangers, the rest won't have much use of it.

Selfless Spirit - Well... Why not... But only Monks and Ritualists can fully use it. But it just sucks, anyway.

Signet of Corruption - Nobody uses it at Necromancers, as SR is better than wasting PvE slot for a skill. Mesmers might use it... Might, but they have better e-management.

Ether Nightmare - Costs a lot, so only Mesmers, Elementalists and Necromancers should use it.

Elemental Lord - Haha.

Shadow Sanctuary - Lols.

Summon Spirits - Only Ritualists and Rangers, because only they have non-PvE only spirits. That are useful.

Spear of Fury - W/P, P/x, R/P. But only the two latter should use, as Warriors are better at sword/hammer.

Aura of Holy Might - Same as above, except for Assassins instead of Paragons.

So you see, you are wrong.

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PvE Skills need to be balanced

Yes. That is true. Everything else is a fail.

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U wanna balance them ? cap the limit of PVE skills on a bar to 1 or 2 . THAT is the only fair balance possible.

Would hurt only h/h players that don't get any love anyway. Teams would still use CoP as first pve-only skill and Ether Nightmare for the second skill.

Cebe · Jan 05, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

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Originally Posted by fanatic 's faith

i find your ideas ridiculous tbh, i like pve how it is, wanna make it harder? dont use those skills then. leave it as it is for others.

Don't think of it as making it harder, think of it as "kicking the game back into touch".

I always love the suggestion "just don't use those skills". If they're available, people will use them even if they want the game to be made harder, this is because everyone is always on a quest to find the most efficient build at killing. There is no valid reason to have to dumb down your build to bring the game down to a more enjoyable level.

Clarissa F · Jan 05, 2009, 04:53 PM // 16:53

While I agree with the changes, They won't happen, as the players with less skill are the ones that are buying the game, now. Anet made the skills easier, in part, to give people the chance to fill that HoM, which is a standing advertisement for GW2. PvP is still hard, and people who played pre-Nightfall can remember how fun it was to coordinate Urgoz nights with their guildies, or get together with friends to help them run Tannhakai.

For those who say PvE skills/buffs didn't hurt the game, let me mention one area which they did hurt. Read the name of the game: GUILD Wars. Less people join guilds on the PvE side. Why join a guild, when you can run through most areas with H/H, or farm solo with SF? Guilds are mostly about PvP, now. I remember when you had a mix, with people getting together to GvG or even AB one night, then hit elite areas like Urgoz another. HM brought this back for a short while, but then Anet, with consumables, drove that away. Now, other than for RP, most guilds seem to be geared for PvP. When you kill one of the great social aspects of the game, you are killing the reason it is a MMO/CORPG, and making it more like Diablo2, or an RPG.

Honestly, if you want to do stuff on your own, go play Final Fantasy or Oblivion. Otherwise, you really don't understand the reason behind SOCIAL games.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Basically this.

It continues to blow my mind that people can legitimately defend there being changes to continually make the game easier. Do you look at yourselves in the mirror, and feel dead inside that you think this is a good idea?

Small wonder that a large part of the GW community gets no respect from accomplished players.

Yep. The introduction of HM made the game easier.

Yep the nerf of UB (that I defended) made the game easier.

PvE is a game where you are presented with a problem - how to defeat a certain area. Then you are given an arsenal of options - skills and consumables (I dislike those and don't see the need for them, but I also dislike area effects). U puzzle them on your available 64 skill slots (harder to convince other humans to change their part of the puzzle than heroes) and defeat the area. Puzzle is solved and you will always be able to solve the same puzzle again and again.

My proposal for harder HM - add Repressive Energy to every areas.

Should make everyone happy and I sound like a gozu, right?

the_jos · Jan 05, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grj

Quote:

Small wonder that a large part of the GW community gets no respect from accomplished players.

I really do hope the last paragraph isn't shared by the majority here and in game.

People are suggesting changes that will effect accomplished and non-accomplished players alike, do you expect people to endorse these changes made by people who do not respect a part of the community.

I'm going to give one of my harshes comments in ages.
Yes, I share Avarre's opinion on this.

Let me explain.
I've seen several high-end guilds and alliances.
And I have a lot of respect for some of them, because of what they accomplish by skill.
However, at the same time I've seen a lot of crap guilds.
Guilds where people were able to speedclear or ursan elite areas, but whenever it came to balanced play they couldn't get the job done.
And it wasn't individual members, it was entire guilds that called themself high-end and were in alliances that supported high-end play.
On two different occassions I had guildies literally refusing to play with other alliance guilds except the ones they trusted because of the ... yes, I dare say it, inferior gameplay they had.

I'm not talking about players who just started playing or only played once in a while. It's players from who I would expect far better gameplay.
And yes, they speedclear or ursan far better than I do, but just lack simple skills like building a balanced team and working together.

If players want my respect they can earn it, I don't give it anymore.
I've seen a nice alliance literally destroyed by that kind of players.
Sure, they can have all the fun they want and even use PvE skills and consumables for it. But that doesn't earn them any respect from me.
It's the same as if I would enter the PvP side of the game now.
I don't expect respect, I want to earn it by my gameplay.
And I doubt I would gain any respect by playing some overpowered gimmick with which everyone and their grandma can win.

Improvavel · Jan 05, 2009, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

I'm going to give one of my harshes comments in ages.
Yes, I share Avarre's opinion on this.

Let me explain.
I've seen several high-end guilds and alliances.
And I have a lot of respect for some of them, because of what they accomplish by skill.
However, at the same time I've seen a lot of crap guilds.
Guilds where people were able to speedclear or ursan elite areas, but whenever it came to balanced play they couldn't get the job done.
And it wasn't individual members, it was entire guilds that called themself high-end and were in alliances that supported high-end play.
On two different occassions I had guildies literally refusing to play with other alliance guilds except the ones they trusted because of the ... yes, I dare say it, inferior gameplay they had.

I'm not talking about players who just started playing or only played once in a while. It's players from who I would expect far better gameplay.
And yes, they speedclear or ursan far better than I do, but just lack simple skills like building a balanced team and working together.

If players want my respect they can earn it, I don't give it anymore.
I've seen a nice alliance literally destroyed by that kind of players.
Sure, they can have all the fun they want and even use PvE skills and consumables for it. But that doesn't earn them any respect from me.
It's the same as if I would enter the PvP side of the game now.
I don't expect respect, I want to earn it by my gameplay.
And I doubt I would gain any respect by playing some overpowered gimmick with which everyone and their grandma can win.

Again, if you want respect and be called the best in the world, play GvG.

Its an equal fight there.

Trying to be called good because you can outsmart some line of code that can't learn is stupid.